Requested Move File interface: suggestions

[kjbaumga]

Normally I've used IrfanView's Move File window with no problems. Recently, though I had to do a lot of heavy sorting of images, and I had more trouble with it.

The problem is that when moving files to lots of new directories, it's hard to remember keyboard shortcuts, for example that folder x is "9" and folder y is "c". When I used the keyboard, I made mistakes, and mistakes are a real pain to correct when moving files.

I could use the mouse, but if you use the mouse, you have to click the radio button next to a folder then hit enter. This is slower, but it leads to fewer mistakes.

Some thoughts occured to me to make the process both faster and still reduce mistakes:

(1) Hold down a special key, such as the Control key, while clicking the radio button. When you do this, the effect would be the equivalent of pressing the button and hitting ENTER. One click and the file is moved.

(2) Alternatively, have an entry in the preferences that says something like, "Clicking radio button moves file immediately." If this were checked, you would not have to click the radio button and then hit ENTER to complete a move. Just clicking the radio button would complete the move.

(3) If possible, draw a rectangle on each line that groups the directory name with the radio button. Visually this makes it easier to be certain you've selected the right radio button. Since file-moving mistakes are a pain to correct, this is important.

To make this idea clearer: right now, in the IrfanView forum, the name of the forum is visually grouped with the latest forum topic using a thin rectangle. I'm suggesting that the radio buttons and directory name boxes be grouped with a similar rectangle. This is especially helpful when you are dealing with deeply nested directories that have long pathnames. (Because the folder name is at the far right, and the radio button is at the far left.)

(4) Perhaps put the keyboard shortcut on the same line as the directory path name for the last 5 entries. For example, write "12. (c)". That way, you don't have to look down at the buttons at the bottom to see which key "12" maps to. This might also help both speed and accuracy.

I hope one or two ideas here might be useful to IrfanView users.

Kurt

[Skippybox]

I don't see your problem. Can't you just click the numbered buttons on the buttom which are clearly labeled next to the corresponding directories? It is instantaneous and chooses the radio button for next time too, allowing a simple Enter if desired.

[kjbaumga]

I don't see your problem. Can't you just click the numbered buttons on the buttom which are clearly labeled next to the corresponding directories? It is instantaneous and chooses the radio button for next time too, allowing a simple Enter if desired.

Thanks for your feedback, Skippybox.

I agree the interface is very good just as it is. For daily sorting chores, it's great. My problems with it only began when I tried sorting files that were really disorganized, and wanting to sort them fast.

When I did that, I found myself making mistakes, as well as taking extra time to make sure I didn't make further mistakes. Remember, each mistake requires going out to explorer, locating the file, and moving it manually. So it is truly a pain to make even one mistake.

I should note that in the past, I've stumbled across images that were totally in the wrong place, and I knew the only way they could have gotten there is by pressing the wrong button in Irfanview. So even in daily sorting, I've been making mistakes and only realizing it months later.

How could someone make a mistake, or be slowed down by the current interface?

If you use Irfanview a lot, you remember that "6" maps to, say, "C:\desktops". So it works great. But if you're sorting files to a bunch of new directories, you don't remember what "6" maps to. Say you're sorting to directory "C:\fine art\better reproductions\robert rauschenberg\paintings\combines". The process goes like this:

1. Scan down the list for the word "combines" on the far right of the interface. (The bigger the pathname, the further to the right you must scan.)

2. Now scan over to the left to see what "combines" maps to. Let's say it maps to "6" -- at least it appears to. Wait, better safe than sorry: scan to the right again, make sure. Okay, that's right. Now look down to the bottom of the screen and scan for the "6" button. Click it. (I know, I could click the radio button "6" and press enter -- but that seems to defeat the purpose of the buttons at the bottom.)

As the move process starts, you scan up and across one more time, because you know it will be a pain for you if you get it wrong. Okay, it looks right.

3. Repeat the above for 500 images.

If you do the above using the keyboard, step two would look like this:

2. Scan to see "combines" maps to, say, "12". Scan to the bottom of the screen and see that "12" maps to "c". Scan up to make double sure that "combines" maps to "12". Scan down to make double sure that "12" maps to "c". Scan the keyboard for "c". Press "c". Done.

Does this process work? Yes. Is it as fast and accurate as it might be? I'm not so sure.

Using the suggestions I described, there might be improvement:

1. Scan for the word "combines" on the far right.

2. Scan left to see what "combines" maps to. Because each line is contained in an organizing rectangle, it is visually very clear that "combines" maps to "6". You feel confident you've got it right. Now click the "6" radio button. The move occurs immediately, so there is no need to scan the buttons at the bottom. Done.

3. Repeat for 500 images.

I'm arguing this process will most likely be both noticeably faster and result in fewer errors than the first, if you sort a lot of images to new directories.

If the keyboard is used, then step 2 is:

2. Scan left to see what "combines" maps to. Because each line is contained in a rectangle, it's clear "combines" maps to, say, "12". Because the letter "c" is right next to the "12" (in parentheses), you instantly know, without further scanning, that "12" maps to "c". Scan the keyboard for "c" and press it. Done.

The only thing that really slows you down in the second case is finding "c" on the keyboard, because a-e are not in sequence on the keyboard, unlike 1-9. It has occured to me that perhaps CTRL-0 could map to 10, CTRL-1 to 11. This might also help make things faster and more accurate.

Bottom line, I like the interface as it is, but I'm hoping these ideas might be something to consider to make it even better.

Kurt

[Skippybox]

Ok, I think from your explanation that you should not be using these dialogs for your project. Did you know that you can use IrfanView Thumbnails for moving/copying to folders in the tree? But, I have a feeling that this won't help if your folders are scattered all over and don't fit on screen in the tree.

That is why using Windows Explorer makes more sense with shortcuts. If you have a dedicated folder of shortcuts open, you can just drag and drop your files easily over to them. Now you don't have to guess or triple-check your choice! What's more, you can now transfer more than one file at a time in a single operation. I would give the shortcuts easy names and perhaps numerically prefix them for sorting to your needs. You can use the keyboard to force any necessary copies/moves or right-drag for a pop-up menu choice. And if you wanted, you can move the shortcuts around, or even into your image source folder so you don't need two windows.

The view of the shortcuts can be easily changed, and if your source folder's thumbnails are too small/large at the default 96 pixels, then you can get TweakUI to change them up to 256 or as small as 32. If you really like seeing the images far bigger, then you might try an even better program to replace Explorer, called FreeCommander. It has a QuickView that let's you see a large preview of your image and even a built in viewer. Here is what I imagine you could do:

[kjbaumga]

... If you have a dedicated folder of shortcuts open, you can just drag and drop your files easily over to them. Now you don't have to guess or triple-check your choice! What's more, you can now transfer more than one file at a time in a single operation.

Yours is a good suggestion, Skippybox. I don't use folder shortcuts enough. Definitely, for some types of image and file sorting purposes your method is something I will have to keep in mind.

The stuff that I'm doing, though, requires I see the image full size, because I'm sorting pictures not only on their subject but on whether I like the image and the reproduction. I often divide images that way -- according to quality, not just subject.

If I use Explorer or an alternative to do this, I'd have to leave full screen mode and drag images to folders, the return to full screen mode. In Irfanview, on the other hand, I can remain in full screen mode and achieve the same thing with : F7, click, click. (My suggested change would change that to : F7, click.)

Even when I know the next 5-10 images are certain to go to folder X, Irfanview's interface is often more enjoyable than the thumbnail viewer, because I get to enjoy the image before I sort it. That's one of many ways in which Irfanview rocks. As a side note: before using Irfanview, I tried sorting with another image program, and I remember thinking, "This might be easier than with Irfanview, but it's boring. Can't I ENJOY the images, not just sort them?" As soon as I switched to IV, I was doing both at once: sorting and enjoying. Thanks again, Irfan!

So for my purposes, I think my original suggestion seems reasonable. But I've thought of another way to express my thoughts on the "Move" interface:

I've always thought there was a bit of redundancy in having the radio buttons to the left of each folder, and then a regular button to match every radio button at the bottom of the interface. Now imagine if the radio buttons were simply replaced by regular buttons, of the same size and shape as the ones down below, and the ones down below were eliminated. (Maybe that was tried in an earlier version, I don't remember.)

This is in effect what one of my suggestions amounts to. This way, pressing the "1" button moves the file to a folder while also setting "1" to the default folder. So it's F7, click, done! One could argue this is not only faster and more accurate, but cleaner, in the sense of avoiding interface redundancy.

If this were done, a problem might still remain: some users would be surprised that the move occurred immediately with no confirmation. But one could easily pop up a box asking if you really wanted to move the file, and then put a small checkbox inside the confirmation box saying, "Show this dialog every time." If you unchecked that, no confirmation box would pop up.

One of my original suggested changes was very similar to the above, except that I was asking that the radio buttons behave like regular buttons, in that the move would happen the moment you press one of them. I thought users who didn't like this behavior could set it or unset it as a user preference. Ie, either you could click a radio button and press ENTER(as you do now, or press a radio button and have the move occur instantly.

My other idea (which is independent of this main one) is to group the buttons (radio or otherwise) with their associated pathnames using rectangular boxes, because I believe this makes it easier to scan quickly left to right and be sure you're pressing the right button. This is a very common user interface technique. Note that now, the radio buttons are grouped *vertically* in Irfanview, but this grouping is not all that logical or hepful. Imagine if the names of posters in the forum were grouped vertically with each other using a rectangle, but were not grouped horizontally with the post title. It would make seem a bit illogical, and make it slightly harder to visually match up the poster to the post. That's analogous to the Move interface layout. I know this seems nitpicky, but I truly believe that visually grouping the buttons with the pathnames would result in greater speed and fewer errors.

My final suggestion, also independent of the main one, was to use a simpler keyboard mapping for the last 4 directories, because keys a-e are not grouped together neatly on the keyboard like 1-9. I've noticed that SHIFT-1 is very easy to press and would be an easy-to-remember shortcut for "11". That would be my first choice as an alternative to "a".

Anyway, thanks for your time in considering my longwinded suggestions, Skippybox. I'm sure Irfanview is a better program because of your efforts on the forum.

[Skippybox]

Anyway, thanks for your time in considering my longwinded suggestions, Skippybox. I'm sure Irfanview is a better program because of your efforts on the forum.

Thanks for your kind words kjbaumga.

Well, I'm not trying to sway you from your methods, but I thought I'd try to offer some suggestions.

If you indeed need to see the image fullscreen, then did you know that you can have both the IrfanView Thumbnails and IrfanView Full Screen running, and toggle them by pressing Tab? Great thing is, the thumbnail is selected for you, and you just need to move/copy it into the tree. Only problem is that IrfanView Thumbnails doesn't support drag-and-drop outside of itself, like other programs. So, that really limits your capability if you want to move a file to another window.

That is why I think Explorer and FreeCommander are much more handy. If you associate your images with IrfanView, all you need to do is press Enter to see the image. What you should do is change one setting in IrfanView, Properties/Settings>Misc. 1>Start in full screen mode (if image loaded; single ESC for program exit). Now, you can press Enter and quickly see the image full screen, then press ESC (you can also click in the upper left- or right-hand corner to exit) and move your selected file. As you move a file, the next one is selected.

Don't forget that ALT+Tab is a very easy way to toggle between windows even if you are in full screen. And hotkey M will minimize IrfanView even in fullscreen. Then you can click the taskbar button or use ALT+Tab to go back. So, really there is no reason why you can't view your images with IrfanView, while still benefiting from easy sorting in FreeCommander (or Explorer).

When you look at it, it seems about as fast as your suggestion and it's available now:

Your suggestion
1. Space (to view)
2. F7 (to display Move dialog)
3. Click (to move)
4. Repeat steps 1-3

My suggestion
1. Enter (to view)
2. ESC or corner Click (to exit)
3. Drag file (to move)
4. Repeat steps 1-3

[kjbaumga]

Thanks for your thoughts, Skippybox.

But, as I see it, while the number of steps is the same for your method of moving files, the speed of each step is quite different, at least on my machine:

Estimated times for my suggestion:
1. Space (to view) < 1 second
2. F7 (to display Move dialog) < 1 second
3. Click (to move) < ~1 second to click; ( < 1 second if you press a key,
assuming that key is not b-e because b-e take a bit longer to locate on the
keyboard. (Which is why I favor SHIFT-1 to SHIFT-4 over b-e--more intuitive and easier to locate on the keyboard).)
4. Repeat steps 1-3

Estimated times for your suggestion:
1. Enter (to view) ~3-10 seconds (explained below)
2. ESC or corner Click (to exit) < 1 second
3. Drag file (to move) ~3 seconds
4. Repeat steps 1-3


The reason step one takes up to 3-10 seconds is because of my slow machine and my even slower external hard drive (a Maxtor). I do not start Irfanview when it is not necessary. Rather, for quick viewing, I drag images into an existing Irfanview window. But even that takes perhaps ~3 seconds when the dragging is considered.

Even if I upgrade the machine (impossible economically at this time) there is still step 3. The reason step 3 would be slow is that positioning the mouse on a file and dragging it accurately to another folder is much slower than simply clicking a destination directory, or pressing a key.

After all, think about it: if my solution is faster than IrfanView's current one, and yours is as fast as mine, then yours is faster than IrfanView's. So if your solution were really faster, then Irfanview's current Move File interface does not seem necessary. People could use your solution for all situations in which they move files. (That is: store a folder filled with shortcuts to your favorite image directories, pop down Irfanview, then drag files to those folders.)

But I appreciate your suggesting workarounds. To be honest, if the goal is a workaround for my situation, rather than optimizing the current interface, I'd say the best solution would be to temporarily put my new directories in the 1-10 slots. Then I could train myself to use the keyboard only, and moving a file would be F7, keypress. (Total time: About one second.)

The trouble there would be that (a) I'd have to replace the 1-10 slots with their original contents when I was done, and (b) I would probably accidentally send certain files to the directories that are already associated in my mind to 1-10. Then I'd have to locate those files and put them where they belong. But it would be doable.

Another workaround would be to install two versions of Irfanview. This would give me 14 more directory slots, and I could use the directories 1-10 for sorting to new directories using the keyboard only.

Trouble is, I've already used this workaround in the past! I still use this method if I have a whole bunch of new directories I want to sort to, and I know I will not be sorting to them often. It is an acceptable workaround, but it's odd to install two versions of an application just to double your number of directory slots in one interface.

Anyway, I still feel pretty sure the first method I described is about as optimized as humanly possible, while the second method is not. I think Irfan's interface, just as it is, is already faster than method 2, even for the heavy kind of sorting I'm doing. In fact, Irfanview's current Move File interface is already optimized more than any interface for moving files to frequently used directories that I've ever seen. It's one reason I love Irfanview. Note that Irfanview's interface for doing this is even faster than FreeCommander's. (F6, select folder from dropdown list, then press okay -- this is slower than Irfanview, at least when moving individual files.)

Another advantage of using Irfanview's interface is what I mentioned was a favorite aspect of Irfanview for me: Irfan designed it so that sorting and enjoying images need not be split into separate activities. Having to pop down Irfanview and drag a file, then pop Irfanview up again, would take away
this advantage for me. Those who use the Move interface for everyday sorting know what I'm talking about: you can enjoy an image, sort it in just an instant, then automatically see the next image. Other than briefly seeing the "Move File" interface, your experience of viewing the images is uninterupted.

So, my suggestions are made with the intention of making this already first-rate interface *slightly* more optimized, but also (as I wrote) to remove the redundancy of using 28 buttons when 14 seem just as effective and intuitive.

My other ideas, such as visually grouping the buttons that are functionally grouped, and using SHIFT-1 instead of "b" for intuitiveness and speed, seem sound ones, independent of your particular image sorting task.

But can I live without these optimizations, or use a workaround such as a double install of Irfanview? Sure. I appreciate your suggestions for helping me with these tasks, and it's given me some ideas for file sorting that I hadn't thought of. I'm hoping that Irfan might consider these ideas for improving the Move interface (all these suggestions apply equally to the Copy File interface, by the way). I know he might be swamped with suggestions, so I might try bringing up this idea again in the future.

[Skippybox]

Kurt,

I think you make very valid points. IrfanView's Move/Copy dialogs are impressively and ingeniously efficient compared to anything else, even a file manager's. That is why I am going to focus in that direction. In fact, there is a program that appears to have the interface that you desire. Unfortunately, that program is not IrfanView, but it is very good. So, here I go again and make another silly suggestion to use FastStone MaxView. It has a very easy set of hotkeys, C for copy, M for move! You can browse for a folder and a history list is maintained, where all you have to do is double-click the path you want! Now is that quick or what?



Maxview also has a sister program called FastStone Image Viewer which is more enhanced. The copy/move dialogs are enhanced as well and have an additional Favorites tab that works very much like IrfanView. You can preset all your paths, but also give them special names and a custom order for quick recognition. It all works the same way as MaxView, and you can switch back and forth between tabs if you like. You like?



FastStone Image Viewer is freeware and MaxView is freeware up to 2.3.

[FrizzleFry]

I really do not see the need for separate radio and copy/move buttons.

The active copy/move button is highlighted so why do we need the radio button to show which folder is active? It does not seem that you can change the active folder without making a move anyway.

Having the copy/move buttons along the bottom of the dialog forces you to look up to the folder list see what folder is associated with a number.

Seems to me we could just get rid of the radio buttons and put the copy/move buttons next to the folder fields. If the radio buttons are necessary then why not put the copy/move buttons next to the radio buttons.

Another feature I would like is to have the mouse cursor unhidden when the copy/move dialog is shown in full screen.

[matera]

I second the request for buttons only. The interface is unnecessarily complicated.

[Skippybox]

You have my vote.

[Skippybox]

Another feature I would like is to have the mouse cursor unhidden when the copy/move dialog is shown in full screen.

Press F11 to toggle the mouse cursor in fullscreen.